2017:The end of rosewood?

westtexasred · Post by **westtexasred** » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:31 pm

Maybe so for cheaper guitars

Email from RondoWorld:

"We are back from the NAMM Music trade show with many new items and specials, check them out below!

CITES UPDATE: After attending several CITES meetings it is our opinion that lower priced instruments (below $300) made with rosewood will no longer be available once current rosewood inventories run out (this is for all vendors, Fender, Epiphone, SX etc). Models instead will likely be made with "engineered rosewood' which is sort of like plywood, and be constructed from pine and other non-rosewood materials. Of course Maple and Ebony will remain available (for now). We have several shipments of lower priced models using true rosewood that was harvested prior to the January 1, 2017 (Pre-Convention) deadline. However, after that, supplies from all vendors will start to become extremely scare. Higher priced models (Agile, Gibson etc.) will likely still have rosewood available in limited supply for quite some time but ultimately we expect those supplies will run out as well. This is much like Brazilian Rosewood, which has been banned for export since 1992. Note that guitars made with Brazilian rosewood have become highly sought after, and rather scarce due to their fine sound. This, combined with the export ban on Brazilian rosewood, make them a highly sought- after product. We expect a similar outcome with the select remaining rosewood models as well in time.

Kurt"

jcyphe · Post by **jcyphe** » Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:02 pm

Guitars use very little rosewood. The pressures on hardwood lumbers are coming from other industries like furniture and cabinet making which use much more material. Between climate induced deforestation, over logging for commercial use, and illegal logging a lot of tree species are not being given any chance to replenish. It's a very sad state of affairs.

I think cheaper guitars should stop using rosewood but I also think the guitar industry gets a bad rap.

sunshiner · Post by **sunshiner** » Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:31 pm

I think all electric guitars should stop using precious woods or if be sensible any woods at all. Myths about any influence of the wood on the sound of an instrument with electromagnetic pickups are pernicious and are not busted yet only because it is the only aspect that allows manufacturers to earn a lot of money instead of some.

There is a need for a guy who will test the same model of the guitar with different materials of the body, neck and fretboard, with the same set of pickups; who will record them and reveal that the frequencies of the instruments are either all the same or there is a slight difference that can be neglected (That'll destroy guitar making industry over a night I guess)

I am all for different lightweight guitars that will be made out of new or not so new hydrocarbonic materials. I am pretty sure that they will start to become popular in next 5 years

sunshiner · Post by **sunshiner** » Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:38 pm

^Great idea for a startup by the way. If you use this idea, don't forget about giving me 1% of the company earnings

HNB · Post by **HNB** » Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:59 pm

Some of the modern Hagstrom guitars have a synthetic material for their fretboard that looks dark like ebony on their cheaper guitars. I think it looks great. I would rather have that then plywood or pine.

IMG_6366 by Hentai No Baka, on Flickr

Bacchus · Post by **Bacchus** » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:04 pm

The fretboard on my fretless Squier bass is ebonol and is great. Don't know how much better plastic is than wood in terms of the environment... but ebonol definitely doesn't seem any worse than ebony.

From what I've read, this will be an issue for a year or so until guitar manufacturers and dealers work out what they can do legally, and then everything will go back to normal.

robert(original) · Post by **robert(original)** » Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:28 pm

when i was in school ten years ago or so my teacher was talking about how rosewood was not going to be an option in 20 years and it would all be old stock or stuff that is pulled from lakes. Its a shame. i just sold my brazillian bookmatched set for a parlor sized guitar to a local fella, i wish i hadn't since right after he paid me he told me he was going to make a jewelry box out of it. bastard.

chemistforhire · Post by **chemistforhire** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:24 am

sunshiner wrote:I think all electric guitars should stop using precious woods or if be sensible any woods at all. Myths about any influence of the wood on the sound of an instrument with electromagnetic pickups are pernicious and are not busted yet only because it is the only aspect that allows manufacturers to earn a lot of money instead of some.

There is a need for a guy who will test the same model of the guitar with different materials of the body, neck and fretboard, with the same set of pickups; who will record them and reveal that the frequencies of the instruments are either all the same or there is a slight difference that can be neglected (That'll destroy guitar making industry over a night I guess)

I am all for different lightweight guitars that will be made out of new or not so new hydrocarbonic materials. I am pretty sure that they will start to become popular in next 5 years

So you want to save the trees but doom the planet to the ravages of climate change?

sunshiner · Post by **sunshiner** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:22 am

We do produce most of the materials that we use in everyday life from oil right now. You don't necessarilly need to burn fossills to produce materials out of them. Don't pretend that by destroying tropical(and other) forests we don't damage environment irreparably. Start using electrical and hybrid engines everywhere where they can replace internal combustion engines and use oil mostly for producing materials. Sounds like more environment friendly for me

Post by **Doog** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:37 am

sunshiner wrote:I think all electric guitars should stop using precious woods or if be sensible any woods at all. Myths about any influence of the wood on the sound of an instrument with electromagnetic pickups are pernicious and are not busted yet only because it is the only aspect that allows manufacturers to earn a lot of money instead of some.

There is a need for a guy who will test the same model of the guitar with different materials of the body, neck and fretboard, with the same set of pickups; who will record them and reveal that the frequencies of the instruments are either all the same or there is a slight difference that can be neglected (That'll destroy guitar making industry over a night I guess)

I am all for different lightweight guitars that will be made out of new or not so new hydrocarbonic materials. I am pretty sure that they will start to become popular in next 5 years

100%, fuck an tonewoods. I know we'll never fully move on, because people are so obsessed with the past.

robert(original) · Post by **robert(original)** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:14 pm

there is a fella on the nirvana gear page on facebook that is trying to argue with me about "tone woods" on a mustang. i already quoted Bennedetto(sp) who, of course was quoted to saying something to the effect of, "on a solid body guitar the wood has no bearing on tone or sound" and i believe that 100 percent. it doesn't matter what a solid body guitar is made out of, it will sound the same. period.

Post by **Doog** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:21 pm

robert(original) wrote:it doesn't matter what a solid body guitar is made out of, it will sound the same, plugged-in. period.

dylanafghjkl · Post by **dylanafghjkl** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:31 pm

Doog wrote:
robert(original) wrote:it doesn't matter what a solid body guitar is made out of, it will sound the same, plugged-in. period.

yea this
the density of the wood would have an effect on how much the guitar would resonate slightly but once it's plugged into an amplifier it's the sound of strings vibrating into a magnet and the wood is basically there for balance

robert(original) · Post by **robert(original)** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:27 pm

if you are playing an electric solidbody guitar unplugged, then you are already messing up.

Grant · Post by **Grant** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:35 pm

robert(original) wrote:if you are playing an electric solidbody guitar unplugged, then you are already messing up.

yeah but i'm making guitar sounds with my mouth when i'm doing it okay?

(tonewoods have no effect on this)

J0K1 · Post by **J0K1** » Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:47 pm

If rosewood will no longer be available I think we need to buy more guitars now

paul_ · Post by **paul_** » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:22 pm

The new CITES regulations on all types of rosewood are the real story, they were announced late last year and go into effect on Jan 2nd. Basically it's going to cost extra money for manufacturers to internationally ship anything containing rosewood for sale in another country. From what I've cursorily read, it would cost an extra $100 a pop giving manufacturers incentive to pay $400 annually for licenses that let them do it at $5 a pop. Given that cost-cutting occurs at each and every step it conceivably can with companies like Fender/Gibson, the Rondo dude seems to be making an educated guess at guitars in the $300ish range and lower likely not having this now-costly proviso figured into their overhead.

When you consider that MIM Fenders use a lot of 3rd party bits originally only found on Squiers and the lower end of them is getting to be pretty much an equal skive to buying a Squier, the outlook on entry-level Fender-branded Fender doesn't look great either. They only cost more than $300 right now because Fender are dicks (and don't get me started on the Squiers that cost more than that).
And, before long, this will lead to the absence of rosewood on even the higher-end US stuff. Gibson have already had a little baked maple and richlite escapade on their lower end Juniors and SGs when they ran into rosewood trouble, so I don't imagine they'll hang onto rosewood boards across the lines very long at all.

As for the cheap Chinese/Indonesian stuff that isn't Squier/Epi, yeah... they're running out of rosewood like, this model year. They'll probably keep selling necks they've already made for ages but most asian rosewood fingerboards are basically done for, going the way of Brazilian rosewood. Brazilian is like "Appendix I" under these CITES regulations, and now all other rosewood has been made "Appendix II"

jcyphe · Post by **jcyphe** » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:01 pm

But Gibson acted illegally that's why they had their tonewood seized.

Gibson Guitar To Pay $300,000 in Penalties and Lose Seized Tropical Hardwood.

I remember at the time they were trying to make it political, but they admitted guilt and that they knowingly broke the law.

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:59 am

Damn. This is a bummer because I love rosewood. It definitely shouldn't be used on super cheap Chinese stuff though. That stuff is kindve disposable. I'm the kinda person that buys guitars for life and while I'm not looking for anything new anytime soon this kinda sucks.
Though with the amount of shit fender and squier have cranked out over the years I'm sure there's enough rosewood for everyone on the used market for years to come.

ultratwin · Post by **ultratwin** » Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:52 am

Curious how this will ultimately affect commerce of such an active industry, both new and used products.

We (Moollon) are thankfully mostly unaffected by the changes, having phased out our only use of Indian Rosewood on J-Classic V models a few years ago. The sources for Makassar ebony that YJ gets are via clean dealers from plentiful forests, and he loves the tonal qualities of them so much (calls the material used for fretboards as "very lively, forward projecting", saying they're very reminiscent of the Brazilian rosewood boards on his vintage Fenders, despite feeling very different). Bubinga on the Moollon B524 is far and between and not a necessity for the model itself, so we're pretty much in the clear, so far. Outgoing parcels to NYC this past month has also shown that everything is arriving on time with no lags in customs inspection.

However, the only negative point for Makassar is the character of ebonies to be so dry and prone to movement if not properly hydrated by keeping the instrument above 40% humidity. If anything...as such, Indian rosewood's oily quality makes it a wonderfully stable material for being a "world instrument", hearty enough to do well is climates of all sorts. That all said, Boss feels it's a bit flat on the tone-side of things, and says the plainness of what it contributes to the total sound of a guitar may not be noticed by most, but when it's part of a collective whole (his pre-CBS-spec alloys and very thin lacquer finishes), it's nothing beneficial to achieving dem old toanz.