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One power supply to rule them all?

 
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Concretebadger
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Joined: 14 Apr 2012
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Location: Leeds Leeds LEEDS

PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:15 pm    Post subject: One power supply to rule them all? Reply with quote

My FX chain has a couple of 'awkward' pedals that can't be daisy-chained together. ATM the tuner, dirt boxes and digidelays are all daisy-chained, which runs off another chain (via an isolator adapter) to my RE-20 and a Diago Powerstation. My EXH Cathedral has its own one-spot, so there are two power supplies - the one-spot and the Diago - connected to a two-way mains power strip.

This is the only way I've found to power everything with only one mains cable. I know it sounds weird to use the isolator adapter on *an entire daisy-chain* instead of the RE-20, but the Diago isolator can't supply enough current to power it. It's fine for the tuner, RAT, Muff and DD-3, because even together they're way less thirsty than the RE-20 on its own.

Complicated, eh? Tangled together like this, stuff keeps shorting out and there's hardly enough room for the pedals...and it's not exactly a small board either. The 'pro' solution I guess is something like TheGigRig but TBH I'm tired of trying different systems that never work as advertised: the Diago was supposed to supply enough juice to everything without noise, but in reality it can't.

Sooo...what do? Continue with 'multiple one spot 9V cable spaghetti', or bite the bullet on something that will definitely do the job properly, but at an eye-watering price? Is TheGigRig all it's cracked up to be? How do the Voodoo Lab and T Rex alternatives compare?
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Gabriel
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The gigrig stuff isn't properly isolated. If you're spending the money I'd go for the T-Rex stuff, the voodoo lab power supplies are meant to be great but are super expensive (at least last time I checked they were).

Edit:

Of the expensive power supplies this looks the nicest in my opinion. Although I have no experience with it mind, it just has a good feature set.

http://www.thomann.de/gb/trex_fuel_tank_chameleon.htm
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Concretebadger
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Joined: 14 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, thanks. It's a bit of a shocker Re: the GigRig not being isolated when it's their main selling point...I wonder how they've managed to get away with claiming that. A shame, really - the whole setup looks really neat and tidy.

The T Rex may be my best bet then. It's also pricey and is a bit of a brick size-wise, but it looks like it can do what I want it to do as far as current delivery and isolated 9V taps are concerned (the Voodoo Labs are even more expensive, so unless they're somehow *better* I'll probably pass on those). The switchable voltage might be handy if I move abroad for a while too.

Glad I asked now!
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riotshield
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Joined: 22 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Be sure to check the virtual battery as well

Link

It can help if you got the juice off one power supply but need to isolate only 1-2 pedals. In my rig it helps isolate boss rc-2 and ehx freeze.
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JohnnyTheBoy
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Joined: 04 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just updated my board with one of these!
A Fame-dct-200-multi-output-power-supply

http://www.dv247.com/guitars/fame-dct-200-multi-output-power-supply--204885

Each output is completely isolated and has short-circuit protection. It can deliver 1600mA of reliable power in total.
The transformer makes it free of hum and noise.  
9V & 12V power supply for up to 10 pedals
Eight 9V outputs with two 12V outputs
DIP switch enables changing voltage of 9V outputs to between 4V& 14.5V
DIP switch also changes maximum current to between 50 & 250mA
Dimensions are 171mm width x 111mm depth x 68mm height
On/Off switch with LED power indicators

Was only £33.99 + £5 postage from Germany..

It's a fair old unit, pretty weighty, but looks good quality..
All the other units I looked at were not isolated, and had too few outputs for what I needed...
Nearly bought the Large Harley Benton one, but heard reports it wasn't isolated..the Benton Junior is, but only had 5 outputs..
Just sorting proper cable routes and psu fitment on the board itself...Will let you know how I get on!!
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sp3k
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Joined: 20 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnnyTheBoy wrote:

Each output is completely isolated and has short-circuit protection.


This is wrong.
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JordanD
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Joined: 20 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Popcorn etc at the above comment.

What's the negative to just running somethin like the Diago in a standard setup? It's what I do and am just wondering if there is a way to do it better.
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JohnnyTheBoy
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sp3k wrote:
JohnnyTheBoy wrote:

Each output is completely isolated and has short-circuit protection.


This is wrong.


Really?? That's what it says in the write up...if you have personal experience or know how of this supply, then please....I'm all ears...

Jordan, I ran a johnnyshredfreak with 10 pedals, and started to get weird things happening.. my homebrew SUPERFUZZ didn't like to be in the chain either! So I figured isolated supplies was the way to go...
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sp3k
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't meant to be rude, if that's how it looked.

You need 1 transformer for evey 2 outs to have isolated ground in each one. For what I've seen of the insides, it only uses one transformer.
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JohnnyTheBoy
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem...I'm not a techie, so I don't know how the innards work as it goes, but maybe there are different forms of isolation? One post over at Freestompboxes.org mentions the supply only having 1 toroidal transformer, which can affect galvanical isolation due to having too few outputs.....or something like that Embarassed

Mike wrote:
This has isolated outputs, and is similar in feature set to the Harley Benton, with added sag pots

http://www.musicstore.com/en_EN/EUR/Guitars/Effects-pedal-boards/Fame-DCT-200-Multi-Power-Supply-/art-GIT0019066-000

I've ordered one for pedal testing.


Mike has one..maybe he can chime in?
Or anyone else who has one and knows the low down...
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JohnnyTheBoy
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After a bit of fishing on the net...
Aaahhh, Toroidal means "Donut" shaped.. Embarassed
Wikipedia:
"The advantage of the toroidal shape core is that due to its symmetry the amount of magnetic flux that escapes outside the core (leakage flux) is minimum, therefore it radiates less electromagnetic interference (EMI) to nearby circuits or equipment. EMI is of increasing importance in modern low power, high frequency electronics."

drbob1 on Gearpage.net says..."Isolated taps means that the individual pedal power outputs are electrically separate from each other. They don't just share a ground, they don't just share a 9v buss. If I understand correctly, each will have its own 9v voltage regulator and a ground tied directly back to the power supply. So, any power irregulaties (like one pedal loading down the dc to 8v for example, or a pedal needing a different ground) shouldn't cause problems to the other pedals...

Found this list too, which is comprehensive! And DOES show the Fame as having isolated outputs..
http://stinkfoot.se/archives/808
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Last edited by JohnnyTheBoy on Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Concretebadger
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The wiring I'm using for powering my FX chain is a bit convoluted and hard to explain, but the issue with power supply noise is that certain pedals require a supply that's high-current AND isolated. Dirtboxes, digidelays and tuners are fine, with a few exceptions such as certain fuzzes and oddball pedals that need 12V or 18V (which I don't have, but many people do).

Many power supplies can deliver the current, but all too often isolated outputs cannot deliver enough of it. e.g. the Diago can supply 3000mA, but its isolator adaptors can only let 110mA of that through each time. It's like a large road network with bottlenecks in all the wrong places...an annoying irony that the very pedals that require an isolated supply are the ones that are the most demanding!

If TheGigRig's 'virtual battery' can carry more mA than the Diago's 'Isolator' plug however, it could work. I think.
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riotshield
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Concretebadger wrote:
The wiring I'm using for powering my FX chain is a bit convoluted and hard to explain, but the issue with power supply noise is that certain pedals require a supply that's high-current AND isolated. Dirtboxes, digidelays and tuners are fine, with a few exceptions such as certain fuzzes and oddball pedals that need 12V or 18V (which I don't have, but many people do).

Many power supplies can deliver the current, but all too often isolated outputs cannot deliver enough of it. e.g. the Diago can supply 3000mA, but its isolator adaptors can only let 110mA of that through each time. It's like a large road network with bottlenecks in all the wrong places...an annoying irony that the very pedals that require an isolated supply are the ones that are the most demanding!

If TheGigRig's 'virtual battery' can carry more mA than the Diago's 'Isolator' plug however, it could work. I think.


I have tested the virtual battery for Boss RC-2, EHX Freeze and EHX Holy Grail+. The Holy Grail+ needs around 190mA, so it can at least support that draw
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Gabriel
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Concretebadger wrote:
If TheGigRig's 'virtual battery' can carry more mA than the Diago's 'Isolator' plug however, it could work. I think.


The gigrig is rated much much lower than the diago. I have both on my pedalboard and can only power one pedal with the gigrig whilst I have 4 pedals powered by the diago isolator. I use the isolators to create different daisy chain loops, that way you can isolate a powerful (noisy) pedal without having to run it off an isolator.

Like this:



I'm running.

Diago/johnnyshreadfreak PSU > 2 way 9v dc cable > Strymon Timeline
> Diago isolator > Morley Volume > Virtual Battery (powering EHX freeze) > Mooer Flexboost > TC Polytune

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Concretebadger
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gabriel wrote:





Aha! It was YOU! Thank you! I knew someone had posted that diagram, but I couldn't remember whose was. But yeah. I rigged up the RE-20 and the other daisy chain that way and I can vouch that it works. Unfortunately the EHX 'verb still has to have its own one-spot. Using virtual batteries on the EHX and RE-20 may indeed allow everything to be run on the Diago and its daisy-chain without having to buy a new supply altogether (e.g. a full ThGigRig setup).
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JordanD
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some really useful info in here, thanks. I knew next to nothing about powering these things and the best methods. I just know my diago has a "limit" of the amount of power it can put out.
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awfurby
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had some of the same issues as you when I was running a daisy chain onespot. Funnily enough it was the RE-20 I was using that forced me to switch.

So I got a T-Rex fuel tank Classic. Perfect.
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Concretebadger
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A quick update: I splurged on the GigRig Timelord adaptor for the RE-20, and it does what I wanted the Diago Isolator adaptor to do in the first place. A Virtual Battery adaptor will work on the Cathedral without needing to upgrade the supply and its daisy chains, but I can't really afford to buy that as well right now (fortunately it'll be a lot cheaper than the Timelord, so the worst outlay is done now).

It was pricier than I would've liked, but at least it works.
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NickS
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a side note, the noise and whine picked up when using switched-mode PSUs like the later model Johnny Shredfreak seems to have disappeared now we've binned the BT Comtrend powerline Ethernet adapters.
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